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The IRS recently released its long overdue strategic plan showing the agency will hire 30,000 new employees in the next two years.

That is a greater quantity of new IRS agents than the current total number of U.S. border patrol agents: 21,370.

But the IRS chose not to disclose how many employees it will hire in 2025 – 2031. Why?

Because it will show the 87,000 new IRS employees number was correct. President Biden and Democrats denied the 87,000 for months and claimed it was a made-up number. In fact, it was from a Biden Treasury publication, and the recent IRS release is further evidence the 87,000 figure was right all along.

Listen to the Leave Us Alone Podcast to learn why the Biden administration does not want too much scrutiny here.


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Episode Transcript:

Grover Norquist:

Hello, Grover Norquist, here with Americans for Tax Reform. We are here with the leave Us Alone podcast and we’re gonna be talking about taxpayers cuz one group in America that would like to be left alone. And this goes back to the founding of the country. The Tea Party that Lexington and Concord is that people like to be left alone on taxation. They like to keep taxes to a dull roar and make sure that they have control over taxes rather than some third party like the British government or the irs. So we’re gonna be talking about the new IRS expansion, some of the new taxes that Biden has both put on or is thinking about putting on and to discuss this. Mike Palicz with the tax policy Director for Americans for Tax Reform is joining us.

Mike is here and I wanna encourage everyone to subscribe to this podcast. If you like what you’re hearing, please do subscribe on Apple Podcasts and or on Spotify. Leave a five star review because it really helps promote the podcast so that others can find it. And if you’re watching the live stream, please be sure to hit the thumbs up button on YouTube and subscribe to the Americans for Tax Reform YouTube. So or like us on Facebook, that works as well. Returning to our podcast topic today, April 15th this year comes on April 18th, next Tuesday. And that is when everybody has to have their taxes in. And Mike Palicz, could you talk a little bit about what the IRS has been up to, how they’ve been in the news, and what American citizens should be aware of in terms of what the IRS has planned for you?

Mike Palicz:

Sure, Grover, and thanks. The big news we got outta the IRS this week was the release of their spending plan that they were obligated to produce by Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen to explain how they plan to spend the 80 billion handed to the IRS by Democrats in their inflation reduction act. Now of course, first off, the IRS missed their deadline for when they were supposed to produce the spending plan to Congress coming in a few months late. And of course they go without any penalty, not like you, although you would get penalized if you filed your taxes later. The IRS doesn’t face that penalty when they come up with something late. But the big news out of this was in re in regards to the 87,000 agents, that the IRS is actually on pace to hire more than 87,000 agents, which was the estimate we had previously had from treasury. The reporting from the fiscal, from their spending plan shows that they’re gonna actually hire 19,000 agents in the next two years and nearly 30,000 in the next three years. And to put that in perspective, that’s more IRS agents higher just in the next three years than we have current border patrol agents.

Grover Norquist:

Okay. So that’s quite a bunch of agents. Are they gonna spend some money on getting people to answer the phones?

Mike Palicz:

Yeah, so this is the main talking point you’ll see from Democrats is that the funding in the ira, that, that the $80 billion going towards the irs, well that’s all gonna be used to improve taxpayer services. That’s their messaging point. In reality, what we do know from both the IRA and from the new spending plan from the IRS its own document is that really they’re gonna spend 14 times the amount on increasing enforcement. That means coming to audit you that they are on improving taxpayer services. Only 3 billion. A little over 3 billion is going actually improving taxpayer services. We’re nearly 50 billions going to stepping up enforcement

Grover Norquist:

Because I, I know that the reports are that one out of five calls actually gets to the irs that if you call the IRS five times, they may pick up the phone once out of the five. Now, whether they tell you anything useful or can help you is another question, but they don’t even pick up the phone four out of five times. I know I’ve called in and had it ring for 20 minutes or more and then heard on a note saying, we’re really busy, call back tomorrow. So at least the airlines like, come and tease you every five minutes and give you hope that they’ll pick it up sometime. And they do pick it up sometime that day, but don’t tell you to go,

Mike Palicz:

This is what we’re seeing again, messaging from the IRS right now, is that what we are improving tax answering the phone calls? Well, you know, the most recent data we have from the taxpayer advocate for their their year end 2022 report, which is the IRS’s internal watchdog, is that they’re answering the phones about 20% of the time. We even actually see that that includes the times you’re getting like a robot answer or a voicemail to call back later. The, the amount of time you’re actually calling and getting a live person is below 20%. But we’ve seen

Grover Norquist:

20% is the improvement not the, not the problem.

Mike Palicz:

Well that’s, that’s, that’s the starting point from the problem. We’ve seen a lot of focus from the IRS about how they’re dramatically improving, allegedly you know their call rate. But that’s, that’s, we don’t have any report on that. That’s just statements from the irs. And I surely would hope that they are given how much money is being thrown at them. Of course they should. The real problem we’re gonna see is starting this tax season is we’re gonna see the IRS stepping up enforcement. And again, it’s that 14 to one spending ratio on increasing enforcement rather than taxpayer services is where we’re gonna really see the system strained.

Grover Norquist:

Okay. So 80 billion is it the ratio is like $14 for audits and enforcement for every dollar that could qualify a service? Is that roughly the number?

Mike Palicz:

That’s correct, yes. So it’s roughly a little less than 50 billion being used to increase enforcement compared to just over 3 billion used to improve taxpayer services. And again, I

Grover Norquist:

Yeah, go ahead.

Mike Palicz:

With the hiring of IRS agents that we’ve seen, again, it’s the 87,000 number that comes from a 2021 Treasury report. What we’re actually seeing from the IRS’s plan that’s been released is that they’re far on pace to, to far out pace that actual number. So we might see them come in well above 87,000 IRS agents, or at least they’re certainly on pace if they are to, to end up in that spot. And, and given what we know from the plan, a real frustration here is that they’ve actually only released hiring information for the next two fiscal years. So the, the report that they gave to Congress only showed what their hiring numbers are gonna be for 2023 and 2024. They then handed the years for 2025 to Politico for reporters. So again, frustration here is we know IRS has these additional years because it’s been reported that they’ve given it to friendly media, but what they’ve only given Congress is only for two years. And I think it’s, it’s fair to question if the reason IRS is withholding you know, the full hiring plan for the decade, which is what they were required by Treasury Secretary Jenny Yellen to do, is because they don’t want to give credence to conservatives that, that would justify that 87,000 number or show that the IRS is actually on, on pace to to beat that number.

Grover Norquist:

Okay? So they’re gonna hire at least 87,000 people. They’ve only talked, admitted to how many they’re gonna hire in the next two years, even though they were instructed by the Secretary of Treasury, who theoretically is their boss to give us a 10 year window. Cuz that’s what the, the legislation says. You got 80 billion over 10 years to play with, and they’re only gonna tell you what they’re gonna do between now and oh just now in the next election. They’re literally not telling you what happens the, the year after the next election.

Mike Palicz:

And, and of course they tell you, you know, we’re only going after individuals who make less than $400,000. They want you to believe that they’re only targeting billionaires, or they’re, they’re hiring a workforce that’s, you know, more than five times the size of the amount of billionaires we even have in the country. So we know that’s not true. But within this as well, we know that there, there’s nothing actually in the Inflation Reduction Act that says that they’re gonna only target people under $400,000. This is a letter coming from the Treasury Department, essentially just meeting a political promise of the president. And we’ve had, you know, the irs the new Commissioner testify that he’s gonna follow that directive. But again, there’s nothing in statute. So it’s in statute to, to beef that up. So essentially we’re really relying on a political promise from the irs, from the Treasury Department, from the President, and there’s nothing else that shows they’re gonna actually only come after wealthy individuals.

Grover Norquist:

I understood that the Republican controlled House put a piece of legislation forward, which would’ve put into law the president’s promise that he would not be increasing audits on people who made less than 400,000. What, what happened without legislation?

Mike Palicz:

Well, yeah. So we can even go back to while the Inflation Reduction Act was, let me just turn the lights back on. While the Inflation Reduction Act was being considered in the Senate, Republicans in the Senate offered an amendment that would’ve prevented any, in any new audits on individuals earning less than $400,000. Every Democrat in the Senate unanimously voted against that amendment. So Democrats had an opportunity to put in law that audits couldn’t go, that the IRS couldn’t target anyone making less inform hundred thousand, that it could apply to only millionaires and billionaires like they claim. And they voted against that.

Grover Norquist:

Okay, so, <laugh>, for heaven’s sakes, it, it, all the members, all the Democrats in Congress know that the President was lying. And they didn’t, they had no intention of putting into law the President’s promise because he had no intention of keeping it, nor do they. And

Mike Palicz:

The only thing the IRS can point to is a letter from Secretary Yellen. Well, guess what? We just saw the IRS completely ignore a directive from Secretary Yellen on the very spending plan for how they’re gonna spend $80 billion by not meeting the deadline of when they were gonna release this plan. So if they’ve already ignored a, you know, direct order essentially from the Treasury Secretary, why would we believe they’re gonna follow this one?

Grover Norquist:

And everybody listening if you’re before the April 18th deadline to send in your tax returns for this year if you want, you can write on the front of it. You don’t have to turn it on the 18th, just say since the IRS was 48 days late in responding to the Secretary of the Treasury about getting the report on on what they were gonna do with all this money, say, you know, I’ll get my taxes and 48 days after you wanted it, because that’s the way the IRS operates. And by way, I’ll only do a fifth <laugh> of what, of what I’m supposed to do for my taxes. So here’s, here’s what I’m willing to give you now, and we’ll come back later. I, I tend to think that the irs would consider 48 days late to be a problem and only doing two tenths paying two tenths of what you said or one fifth would also be a problem.

But of course, that’s exactly what they did to the American people when they didn’t announce or, or make, make clear their spending plans for 10 years as they were instructed to do. One of the things I find scary is that the irs sent an agent when Tibi the reporter, that’s how you very left of Center reporter was testifying about how the FBI was attacking Twitter and telling Twitter, you have to stop these people from being heard and, and throttle these guys and, and censor these people. So the FBI was telling Twitter and probably other social media, but Twitter’s the one that got opened up for, for, for review for the American people. And what Elon Musk said, make everything visible. So the IRS was leaning on Twitter to muzzle opponents of Biden and tabby this very left wing reporter who’s offended at the idea of the government running around like brown shirts.

 This, this is one where the day he was testifying to a congressional hearing about the FBI’s abuses, his house was visited when he wasn’t there by the irs leaving him a little note about nothing. IRS doesn’t, the IRS mails you notes if they want to tell you something. They, he didn’t know any money. There wasn’t any reason for the, the note to be personally dropped off by an agent. All it was was the IRS going, we know where you live high, remember that we know where you live. I mean, this is, this is Godfather territory. This is very scary.

Mike Palicz:

Yeah. It, it’s, it’s new information that the IRS pays house calls to people without any prior notice or without any letter coming from in advance. And it just so happened to coincide with the day that he would be testifying before Congress on information that, that’s damaging to the Biden administration is something that should be deeply concerning to all Americans, all taxpayers. And we should also stress too, this is again, another area where the IRS has failed to meet the congressional oversight obligations from it. We had a chairman, Jim Jordan send a letter to the IRS demanding all communications about, about what happened in the situation. The IRS has failed to produce any information. It’s something we’ll certainly see House Republicans continue to chase the IRS after and as they should for a proper roll of oversight.

Cause, and, and I think what should be even more concerning to people is the pattern of behavior that we’ve seen of malpractice from the irs. This is coming at the same time, just the month before. We have the IRS going out and, and clearly selectively leaking to progressive media outlets like Pro Puba. The second major leak we’ve had to that outlet and not just the leak, but a theft of taxpayer information th this time targeting CEOs stock trades that they have to file with their taxes is private, confidential information happens to go. At the same time we have a major push from the president to, to quadruple the size of the stock buyback tax, introducing new tax. And this is a follow up to what we had, you know, more than 650 days ago without any answer from the i r s of why we have select wealthy individuals, their, their private information leaked to media outlets that could have only originated from the irs.

Grover Norquist:

Absolutely. This, this is very scary that the irs, the leadership of the irs people high up in the irs that some munchkin would not have access to steal this material. You had to have the keys to the whole kingdom to steal the amount of people’s personal tax returns and audits of their tax returns, and then to hand them over to some left-wing political group. This just is, puts everybody on notice that the IRS is a, is acting as an arm of the Democratic Party

Mike Palicz:

And, and the clear political timing here again, where we’ve had three instances of not just, you know, targeting politics that are at, at, at odds with the administration, but time to do so at Key. You know, we had twice the <inaudible> was making major legislative pushes and now the day that Mike Taibbi is testifying on the hill, he gives a visit from the IRS of his home.

Grover Norquist:

Yeah. They, they’re timing this along with senators holding, you know, hearings and press conferences. So senators are in on the know that stolen data is going to be revealed ahead of their press conference and they time it together. So the communication here between the Democratic senators, the Democratic House members, and the irs, which when you look at their union’s, political giving gives 98% of the money that it raises. As a union, as the IRS Union to Democrats, we have a one party irs. This is, that, that pays no attention to the outside government, which asks for data, which violates the privacy of American citizens and then laughs about it. And which won’t tell people what they intend to do with 80 billion of your money. It’s not their money. This is your money they intend to spend, and they won’t tell you, even when asked by the Secretary of the Treasury what they’re gonna do over a 10 year period makes you wonder. There was a wink and a nod, and that the Secretary Yellen knew that they weren’t gonna give it. She, there was no outrage from her. You think there’d be a phone call, you jerks, you idiots. You, you were to get this information to me and the American people, and you didn’t, there’s no un unhappiness from Yellen. So she must have been in from the beginning on the fact that this was just, you know, a kabuki dance where you pretended to do something and had no intention of keeping your word.

Mike Palicz:

Yeah. And I think with, with these abuses, with the increase in funding and the hiring that the IRS is doing, should also note that they’re actually trying to expand their own individual power. We’ve heard the stories of 10 99 and Ks and coming after people’s Venmo and, and, and PayPal transactions lowering that threshold to $600. And then we, we’ve seen out of fear of the political blowback to this being instituted, we’ve seen the IRS essentially just make up at a thin air that they had the power to delay this for entire year, even though they’ve had, they’ve known this was coming for two years. So we saw at the end of the year, you know, there were multiple legislative proposals at the year end budget deal to try and, and fix the 10 99 K issue. And then just the day after we have something passed that doesn’t have that fixed included in it, the IRS decides to bail out Democrats and delay that rule of being implemented for another year what power they have to do. So I haven’t seen anyone say that they have, we’ve even seen progressive out outlets like the Tax Policy Center come out and say that the IRS doesn’t have the authority to do that. But they clearly just happen to bail out Democrats of a major political problem the day after a bill passes without, without the 10 99 case included.

Grover Norquist:

This is, again, the IRS bureaucracy working together, conspiring with the Democratic Party and the House and the Senate and the White House playing politics, but using your tax returns, your tax dollars to, to do this and that level of corruption the administration doesn’t care about. Very few press outlets are scared to buy it. You, you do wonder <laugh> if only because they’re sure that they’re only going after Democrats, do the press, you know, consider this not interesting. This is a deep and scary problem. And you would’ve thought that when the IRS sick themselves on, on a member of the press in good standing, the left wing press in good standing, that that would’ve woken some people up and made them go, you know what? The IRS is going too far. But I guess the answer is the establishment press is not looking into the IRS’s misdeeds and they’re just ignoring them, which means there’s no check. The president isn’t doing it, Yellen isn’t doing it, or can’t do it if she’s being serious. The IRS itself doesn’t, Congress is not keeping them keeping track of this. Now, the Republican House is going after them, but they can’t pass a law without the Senate. The Senate’s run by Democrats.

Mike Palicz:

And on Matt Taibbi, we should note here too, this is someone with, with a long history of being a left wing reporter. Certainly no front of the, of the political right. But there’s been this effort within the last few weeks to kind of repaint him as, as a total rightwinger. [email protected], for example, we’ve, we’ve posted video from just two, three years ago of Senator Bernie Sanders praising Matt Taibbi as someone who speaks truth to power. But now all of a sudden, all of his allies on the left have abandoned him. The second the stories he’s reporting are, are not favorable to the Biden administration.

Grover Norquist:

The Democratic party likes the power that the IRS wields because they know how they wield it. This is, this is frightening and it’s brown shirt territory. It’s just really, really a bad idea to have the IRS violating people’s privacy and sending out, if they’re gonna have 87,000 more people, they may be coming to a door near you, not just this one press person who had the, the affront rate to practice the First Amendment and ask some questions about how the IRS was behaving. So just final thoughts here from EG Grove and or over at Americans for Tax Reform Tax Day Pay Your Taxes Day is the 18th Tuesday and it’s good luck. I don’t know. Merry Tax Day, happy Tax Day, something along those lines. Do get your taxes and, but when you’re done with that, keep an eye on whether your congressman and Senators have taken the pledge never to raise taxes. Americans for tax reform shares that with Presidents House Senate. Most Republicans have signed the pledge. And about two thirds of the Republican governors have made that written commitment to the people of their state. And we obviously would like more state legislators to do so as well. So Mike Pals of Americans for Tax Room, thank you for joining us today and to everyone else, Merry upcoming Tax Day. Take care.