President Biden’s nominee for Secretary of Labor, Julie Su, recently testified before the Senate Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions (HELP) Committee. Su has a track record of implementing radical labor policies targeting independent contractors and the franchising sector alike. As the head of California’s labor department, she oversaw the squandering of over $30 billion in taxpayer dollars to unemployment fraud.
ATR Federal Affairs Coordinator Rowan Saydlowski joins Grover Norquist on Leave Us Alone to discuss the dangers of Biden’s radical nominee.
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Episode Transcript:
Grover Norquist:
Hey, Grover Norquist here with the Leave Us Alone Podcast. Leave Us Alone Podcast works on the understanding that the modern conservative movement, the modern taxpayer movement, the modern center right movement in America is a coalition of groups and individuals that simply wish to be left alone on their vote moving issue. And one of those issues for many people is their ability to work, their ability to make a living. Their ability to be an independent contractor if they want to, to join a union or not join a union, to pay union dues, or not pay union dues, to have their own choice of how they’re, they do their pension and benefits and so on, to give people the most flexibility. Self-Employed people, people with sort of jobs with a boss, people with jobs, with no boss, people who are independent contractors in the United States.
And that freedom is under threat by this administration, by Joe Biden, and particularly by Julie Sue, who Joe Biden is trying to bring from California, where she has a history. We’ll discuss in terms of her anger or disagreement or the threat she has to people being independent contractors than her leadership in that fight. And she’s coming to DC to be head if she succeeds in being head of the labor department, but a lot of people in Congress are saying, no, no, no. So this may not happen. So here’s where we are. I have with us Rowan Sulaski, who’s the Federal Affairs Coordinator at Americans for Tax Reform. The group that I am the President of Americans for Tax Reform, we do the no tax increase pledge and his policy areas are labor, energy and transportation.
I do wanna encourage everyone to subscribe to the podcast. If you like what you’re hearing, please you know, subscribe to our podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and leave a five star review. It really helps promote the podcast. If you’re watching the live stream, please be sure to hit the thumbs up on YouTube and subscribe to the Americans for Tax Reform YouTube channel, or like us on Facebook. Now Rowan tell us who Julie Sue is and a little bit about what she’s done in California. Why did, why would she be a bad Secretary of Labor or problematic for people who care about their freedom to make a living Roan?
Rowan Saydlowski:
Sure. thanks for having me, Grover. Julie Sue, just start off as a very radical nominee. She had her confirmation hearing in front of the Senate health education, labor, and Pensions committee yesterday. Hearing did not go very well. Stumbled through questions, was unable to answer certain questions, refused to make commitments on others but she was questioned on everything from her time as a college activist to her failures as head of California’s Labor and Workforce Development Agency, as you’ve mentioned and to the radical policies, pushed at the Department of Labor since she became Deputy Secretary of Labor under President Biden plans the department,
Grover Norquist:
She’s in the Department of Labor, but she’s not the number one person now.
Rowan Saydlowski:
That’s correct. She was confirmed on a thin party line vote as deputy secretary while secretary Marty Walsh became the full secretary. He has since resigned, and she is now acting secretary until she’s able to be confirmed or not confirmed.
Grover Norquist:
Okay. what is the issue with independent contractors that Julie Sue was out front on in California that may become a national issue for people that people in California may know this, but other states not. What did she do to independent contractors in California?
Rowan Saydlowski:
So while she was the head of California’s labor department she was a key architect and chief enforcer of a state bill known as AB five. This implemented a vague three factor test, known as an a b, C test, basically made it much more restrictive and more more difficult to itself identify as an independent contractor in the state. She wants to basically force these people who are independent contractors to either become W2 employees or lose their work entirely. Nine in 10 freelancers in California opposed AB five. It was so unpopular and so unworkable for the California economy that voters in the state eventually voted by a 17 point margin to create sweeping exceptions for app-based delivery drivers and rideshare drivers who otherwise would’ve been forced out of their contractor status under this law. Countless other exceptions have been created through the legislature because the original bill was so unworkable to the point that the list of exceptions and industries that it no longer applies to are no longer than the original bill itself was because it was that unworkable. Even so countless truckers, other freelancers in the meantime were forced outta the state entirely. It’s a really bad situation that Julie Sue. Cause
Grover Norquist:
I saw on television, on the nightly news, there were people who’d saved all their life savings and bought a truck as independent contractors. And then they were told that their, their work is illegal. It’s illegal for them to work for themselves. They, you have to pay union dues if you want a job in that state.
Rowan Saydlowski:
That’s exactly right. This is all to, to try to force more independent contractors and people who want to kind of make their own way to force them into employment status so that they are vulnerable to unionization efforts. And, and that’s, that’s a story that’s happened too many times across California where, you know, people have made those investments in themselves and, and it was taken from them.
Grover Norquist:
Okay. So that the legis the initiative in California was passed or defeated, the one that would’ve destroyed stopped most people from being able to be independent contractors.
Rowan Saydlowski:
It was passed by the California legislature. Okay. And shortly thereafter, voters voted on a ballot referendum to for Prop 22, which made those exceptions for the app-based drivers specifically. And there’ve been a bunch of other fixes afterward, but there’s still many people impacted by the original 85.
Grover Norquist:
So the initiative, which in California, you get enough signature, you put a measure on the ballot, the initiative did not wipe out AB five, which took away almost everybody’s ability to be an independent contractor. The initiative only protected some people.
Rowan Saydlowski:
That is correct.
Grover Norquist:
Okay. And truckers are one of the groups that was not protected.
Rowan Saydlowski:
U under that proposition is correct.
Grover Norquist:
Okay. Well, that’s a disaster. Why wouldn’t you run an initiative and, and, and protect everybody instead of just a few? What is it that people are looking, she’s also attacking franchising. Could you, could you explain to people what franchising is? A very American model. It’s not done in a lot of other places in the world are not done very well allowing people to be their own boss. You can run a McDonald’s, right? Yeah. And you own the McDonald’s store and you run it. But they do the advertising and, and they, you know, do the ad you know promotion and so on to help you. But, but you’re self-employed as a franchise franchisee. Some people want to basically outlaw franchises. Would you explain the state of like, just as there’s a war on people being independent contractors, there appears to be a war on the other, on, on franchise. Exactly.
Rowan Saydlowski:
Exactly. Franchising I is a way that a lot of Americans get their first start in owning their own business and, and, you know, controlling their own way to make money. As you said, it’s a very American thing in California. Juli Sue championed another state bill called AB 2 57 for the Fast Recovery Act. This is a radical overhaul of the franchise models specifically for the restaurant industry where the government would be dictating wages dictating the hours worked by the employees and dictating all kinds of company policies in these franchise restaurants. Obviously, this would lead to massive price hikes, layoffs of workers, closures of certain franchises. Luckily Californians once again have begun to reject this law. They have over 1 million signatures were gathered on a petition to introduce another ballot referendum Californians will vote on in 2024 where they’ll be able to overturn the Fast Recovery Act so that, you know, these, these extra regulations aren’t placed on their businesses. And once again, Julie Sue was a champion of this model and seeks to bring that to the federal level.
Grover Norquist:
Okay. so Julie, Sue and the Biden administration want to outlaw franchisees and tell them you’re not, you’re not a small businessman. You’re an employee even though you make the decisions about how to run your, your business. And they also wanna ban independent contractors, which would force people to pay union dues. If you wanted to be a trucker, you have to work for, you have to have a boss. You have to have a boss. Somehow they hate the idea of Americans working for themselves and creating their own small businesses which might grow. And they want both franchisees to be employees and they want, and therefore they can be unionized and the, the Democrats can get money from the unions dues. And the other, I mean, this is and, and independent contractors at the federal level, what is happening if independent contractors are forced to reclassify as workers? What does that do to their tax liability? Is there, does the government get more tax dollars out of you that way?
Rowan Saydlowski:
Yes, absolutely. So after Juli Sue became Deputy Secretary of Labor, the Biden administration proposed a new rule regulating independent contractors. It didn’t quite put it her full a b, c test into play into place. But it’s still a more restrictive way for them to try to force people out of independent contracting and into this employment status. Or, again, if they can’t find that employment status, then simply out of the industry. As for taxpayers last year a t r and the Fellows Foundation commissioned a study that looked at if Sue’s a b C test were applied on a nationwide basis, which she would like the majority of those who would be forcibly reclassified out of independent contractor status would pay higher taxes. And 96% of those who are paying those higher taxes earn below $400,000 a year. That adds up to about 7.5 million Americans earning below 400,000 who see their taxes raised under the Biden Sue Labor policy.
Grover Norquist:
Okay. So this is in addition to an assault on forcing people to pay union dues. If they don’t want to tell people they have to have a boss if they don’t want to, this is also gonna raise money for the government by the taxing you differently, pushing you into being an employee.
Rowan Saydlowski:
Exactly.
Grover Norquist:
Okay. What is Julie Sue’s background? Has she been a labor negotiator? I mean, one of the things that Secretary of Labor does is oversees elections and, you know, labor union conflict and so on. What’s her experience in this area?
Rowan Saydlowski:
In terms of negotiating labor disputes? She simply doesn’t have that experience. As, as some viewers might be aware, our supply chains are once again, potentially in peril by several upcoming labor disputes. There’s the Pacific Maritime Association and the International Longshore and Warehouse Union. They have negotiations coming up that decides what happens at the nation’s ports. And the UPS and the Teamsters have upcoming renewal of contract that they need to negotiate, and the teamsters are threatening to strike, which would put even more of a supply chain snafu in Secretary Marty Walsh certainly was not the ideal candidate to be Secretary of Labor either, but he at least came into office having experience with these negotiations on the ground. Juli Sue has no such experience, and, you know, we’ve seen enough supply chain crises as a result of our often absent Secretary of Transportation. And I think we can’t afford to have an absent Secretary of Labor as well.
Grover Norquist:
Okay. That’s, doesn’t look good. What are the next steps? It how would she lose, I mean, the, the Democrats have a majority in the Senate, don’t they just get 51 votes and win? Why this is getting attention? Because there’s a belief by some that she could be defeated, and that would be a big black eye for the Biden administration. And it would also signal to people, independent contractors, for which there are millions and millions of Americans and franchise Zs, for which there are millions of Americans who work there, have can’t just be crushed by the b by the, by the, the unions and, and the Democratic party, that there’s enough interest in protecting those people that this would be helpful.
Rowan Saydlowski:
Yeah, that’s exactly right. So
Grover Norquist:
How does, how does she, why would she get beat?
Rowan Saydlowski:
Right. So the, the committee, the help committee will vote on her nomination Wednesday with all likelihoods. She will be approved on a party line basis through the committee,
Grover Norquist:
Be called the Labor the, the help, what was they changed the name?
Rowan Saydlowski:
Health, education, labor, and pensions. It is the Labor Committee, essentially. Okay. so after that, whenever the Democrats decide to schedule it, she would move to a vote on the Senate floor. The reason that people are thinking she might not pass through there is you have several democratic senators who have expressed you know, if not outright opposition, at least it’s that they’re undecided usual suspects. Joe Manchin John Tester, Kristen Sinema have either said that they’re undecided or expressed some reservations o other one to look at. Would Senator Mark Kelly from Arizona while he, unlike the other three, is not up for reelection next year, which means he’s a little less beholden to what his constituents actually want and need. He did vote against a prior Biden labor nominee, David, we, whose nomination ultimately went down in flames. So I think Democrats might have a tough time whipping enough votes, but we’ll have to see where they end up.
Grover Norquist:
Okay. So how many Democrats voting against Julie Sue does it take to stop her? Is every Republican in no vote? Is every Republican in no vote?
Rowan Saydlowski:
Every Republican should be a Novo. Every Republican was a no vote on her becoming Deputy Secretary of Labor.
Grover Norquist:
Wow. Okay. So she, as
Rowan Saydlowski:
For
Grover Norquist:
Realize how radical she is.
Rowan Saydlowski:
Oh, absolutely.
Grover Norquist:
And how do you get one or two or three, how many Democrat votes do we need to join the Republicans to stop her from becoming labor secretary?
Rowan Saydlowski:
So it is a 51 49 Senate, so if you assume everyone is lockstep, but two Democrats change sides, believe that is enough so that Kamala Harris can’t break the tie and letter in any way. It is complicated further because you still have the absence of Senator Feinstein. So with that absence, it might be even easier to stop, but we’d have to see how it plays out.
Grover Norquist:
Okay. Well thank you for bringing that up. Wanna have some final thoughts here? And that’s just that here’s an opportunity to, for people to contact their, contact their senators and remind them the importance of defeating Julie Sue because of what she has done in the past to attack independent contractors who have the right to be independent contractors. She wants to force them to pay union dues, force them to have a boss, not allow them, make it illegal for them to be self-employed. Somebody who saves that money to buy a truck, to become a trucker, then just jerk comes in and says, no, no, you can’t be a trucker. You have to go work for a union and pay union dues. And you know, taking away people’s freedom to work is is outrageous and unacceptable and un-American. So thank you everybody for joining us on this, this podcast of Leave us Alone talking about your rights as a citizen to do the kind of work you want under the structure you want. Not something that the government thinks up, or some character named Julie Sue comes and says, I’m the boss and everybody has to pay dues to my favorite charity and give money to the Democratic Party through the unions. And you have to have a boss. You have to have a boss because she’s bossy. Thank you very much and appreciate your being with us, Ron, and good evening everyone. Thank you. Thank you.